File talk:Kzinti vessel c2150s.jpg
File:Kzinti vessel c2150s.jpg I'm questioning the authenticity, not only of what is cited about this image, with regards to the pipedream of ENT Season 5, but also if it is appropriate to have on this site. Is this fan work or was it truely a design commissioned by Paramount? The original source of this image is http://www.glitchwerk.com/gallery/startrek.htm. --Alan del Beccio 22:32, 25 August 2006 (UTC) *'Comment': I am not willing to vote yet, but I second these concerns. I would like to see a more official production source that says there was a plan to use the Kzinti, and that this ship model was commissioned for that purpose. As it is, the quality of that model isn't too great. I know a lot of ametuers on DeviantArt who could make something equal to, or better, than this. I also don't like the choice of article this is being used in. The article is about the 23rd century police vessel, not the 22nd century one. --OuroborosCobra talk 22:39, 25 August 2006 (UTC) ::I don't believe I'm entitled to vote on an image I posted myself, but I will speak in it's defense: ::First, as to provenance - I quote the entirety of the email I recieved from the mesh's author (with permission) - ::Okay, well first I'll admit that the facts stated about Kzinti and season five are a bit over simplified. Basically, I was commissioned by writer Jimmy Diggs to design an "Enterprise" era Kzinti cruiser as part of an overall pitch to Paramount. ::''Jimmy had been a long time writer for Star Trek, and was looking to add his contribution to the Enterprise series. We were in our third round of talks with the producer when the show got canceled. ::''With the show taking a new direction, and paying more homage to the original series, they were very interested in reviving old-school favorites such as the Gorn and "original" Klingons. The Kzinti was being seriously considered as part of this revival. As for my ship design, truth be told, Paramounts people would've probably re-designed it a billion times before it hit the screen. But, still, I would've at least provided the starting point for the concept. ::-Josh ::Second , on placement - the article title is simply "Kzinti police vessel", NOT "23rd Century Kzinti police vessel". so I feel the placement is appropriate. ::Third, on model quality - obviously it isn't a "shooting quality" model. It's a "concept model" that was used as part of the story pitch. I re-quote the relevant portion of the mesh author's email - As for my ship design, truth be told, Paramounts people would've probably re-designed it a billion times before it hit the screen. But, still, I would've at least provided the starting point for the concept. ::Lastly, as to appropriateness - Enterprise wasn't cancelled until 2/3 the way through the season (they were shooting IAMD at the time). Up until then, they were still actively working on story material including material for a Season 5 (Many himself had plotted out an entire ARC for the Enterprise MU, for example.) That this story was still under active consideration (indeed it made it to a THIRD round of discussions) when the "axe fell" indicates that it was not just some random pitch that was quickly dismissed by Paramount. ::Would I cite this image and story as "canon", certainly NOT. But I beleive the circumstances behind it and it's provenance at least earn it a "Background/Apocrypha" mention, which is where I placed it. Capt Christopher Donovan 06:40, 26 August 2006 (UTC) :I still disagree with placement. Your email says this was a model of 'Kzinti cruiser, therefore I again feel this does not belong in the article for the police vessel, as it is not a police vessel. Perhaps it would belong in the Kzinti article? Either way, I am voting '''keep, based on this the information provided. --OuroborosCobra talk 06:49, 26 August 2006 (UTC) :Comment: A better suggestion is that it should be put in Star Trek: Enterprise#Background. Fact is, it isn't a police vessel. --OuroborosCobra talk 07:00, 26 August 2006 (UTC) ::Keep (I checked, and I AM permitted to vote) I feel that it's important to put it in one of the "Kzinti" articles itself, personally...a passing reader in a Kzinti article would be interested in the ship, but would have no idea it was even THERE if it was burried in the "ST:E Background" article. If the consensus is to place it there, then would it be acceptable to at LEAST keep a text mention of the image in the article on Background, and hyperlink to the appropriate "ST: E Background" section? As to the vessel's classification, I am a bit more flexible on that issue...it is possible that the "police vessels ONLY" treaty was signed AFTER this ship would have appeared...Capt Christopher Donovan 07:17, 26 August 2006 (UTC) :::The image has been uploaded here with permission and appears to have been legitimately created for canon production purposes. I think we can keep this one, but the image might be better place in the background section for . We can talk about that at a later time, though. --From Andoria with Love 05:05, 29 August 2006 (UTC) :The image is indeed a gem. With the proper template it should be allowed to stay and be included in ENT#Background as well as Kzinti#Background. A further notice to the sections could be put onto the police cruiser page. -- Kobi 12:48, 29 August 2006 (UTC) ::By my count, that's 4 keep and 1 delete (assuming that's Al's vote)...shouldn't it come off the list now?Capt Christopher Donovan 07:38, 1 September 2006 (UTC) :As a great man once said, "Keep you shirt on Lieutenant" (well, in this case, "Keep your shirt on Captain"). Stuff is supposed to be hear for 7 days, and today is day 7. I'm sure someone will get around to archiving this discussion sometime today ;) --OuroborosCobra talk 08:25, 1 September 2006 (UTC) * Archiving; suits me, I was merely questioning the authenticity. Additionally, in response to Cobra, whether it is a police vessel or cruiser, there really doesnt seem to be a reason to disclude it from the former's article merely on the technicality of the name. The fact they are both starships is more important than what kind, especially in terms of background info. --Alan del Beccio 15:39, 2 September 2006 (UTC) Inspiration from the Star Fleet Universe Kzinti fleet? Hi! I don't know if this occurred to any of you, but to me that Kzinti ship design is very similar to the ship types that the Kzinti Hegemony use in the Star Fleet Universe - the general ship layout, the nacelle configuraiton, even down to the use of missile pods on the wingtips. While the possibility exists that the similarities were entirely unintentional, it seems far too close a fit for this to be the case. My question is, has it been established whether or not the designer explicitly drew from the SFU Kzintis (yes, with an s at the end - different universe) as the source of his ship design? Would this have meant that ADB would have been consulted for the use of the design, since the specific designs of those ships are their intellectual property? --Nerroth 20:18, 21 October 2006 (UTC) :I cannot speak for Court Jones, who did the sketch that led to Finney's CGI, but Jimmy Diggs who commissioned the work told me he is a great fan of the Star Fleet Battles games. -- Kobi 18:47, 13 November 2006 (UTC) It would be great if the artist had a go at submitting work for ADB themselves - with Federation Commander going strong, there is plenty of room for new art! --Nerroth 19:15, 23 December 2006 (UTC) Not designed for Enterprise? Just was researching some stuff for my Kzinti reference page and was stuck at Court Jones' page again (who provided a sketch for Star Trek Communicator #149). On one of the sub pages (which I discovered earlier, but was never able again to locate) another sketch of the Dark Stalker is available – dated 2003! The illustrations there are also credited to be commissioned work for Jimmy Diggs, but for an animated series called Lions of the Night. Currently my theory is that he recycled the work to use some centuries earlier, especially since Lions of the Night was a 2004 project according to House of Diggs. Information anyone? -- Kobi 13:51, 12 November 2006 (UTC) :My understanding is that the mesh AS DEPICTED is the one deveoped for an "Enterprise" pitch. However, you are correct in pointing out that it drew on earlier works by the same artist.Capt Christopher Donovan 03:58, 13 November 2006 (UTC) Sorry for ringing alarm bells, I contacted Jimmy Diggs and he confirmed the theory I stated above, the 2003 Dark Stalker was designed by Court Jones for a proposed movie era animated series. When Manny Coto became executive producer of ENT Diggs re-activated his efforts and commissioned the artist to work from the given sketch and retro-design an Enterprise era vessel. -- Kobi 14:42, 13 November 2006 (UTC)